Israel & Lebanon: Sane news from BBC

[Andrew]

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/5205658.stm

BBC NEWS
Minister condemns Israeli action
Foreign Office minister Kim Howells has criticised Israel's bombardment of Lebanon, while on a visit to Beirut.

He said Israel had not carried out "surgical strikes" and attacking the Lebanese nation was not the answer.

Earlier he said that attempts were being made to engage with all parties and a demand for an immediate ceasefire would be a "meaningless gesture".

Meanwhile thousands of people across the UK are joining demonstrations against Israeli attacks on Lebanon.

Eleven rallies were organised by groups such as Stop The War Coalition and the Muslim Association of Britain.

A rally to show solidarity with people in northern Israel - areas of which have been hit by Hezbollah rockets - is being held on Sunday by the Board of Deputies of British Jews.

We've got a government that doesn't listen to parliament or the people, and that simply follows behind George Bush
Clare Short MP

Mr Howells visited one of the last evacuation ships in Beirut, as the operation to get Britons out of the country winds down.

His criticism of Israel contrasted with Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett, who rejected calls to condemn Israel's actions earlier in the week.

Ms Beckett said she had condemned Hezbollah but bowing to MPs' demands on criticising Israel was not the most effective policy.

Mr Howells said: "I very much hope that the Americans understand what's happening to Lebanon.

"The destruction of the infrastructure, the death of so many children and so many people. These have not been surgical strikes.

"And it's very very difficult I think to understand the kind of military tactics that have been used.

"You know, if they're chasing Hezbollah, then go for Hezbollah. You don't go for the entire Lebanese nation."

Buffer zone

Mr Howells said attempts were being made to engage with all parties and a demand for an immediate ceasefire would be a "meaningless gesture".

Any plans for a stabilisation force or a buffer zone would be discussed fully before any proposals were put forward, he added.

Mr Howell's comments came as former international development secretary Clare Short condemned US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Tony Blair's stance on the Middle East.

"We had a debate on Thursday and most of those who spoke or intervened said that they thought Israel's response was disproportionate, that Britain should criticise, that there was a question of war crimes, that there should be a call for an immediate ceasefire," Ms Short told the BBC.

"But as ever Tony Blair goes on regardless. There are demonstrations around the country today, we've got a government that doesn't listen to parliament or the people, and that simply follows behind George Bush who is really in such error.

"Condoleezza Rice, talking about reshaping the Middle East, that is not possible.

"All she is doing is enraging it, making more and more violence, more and more turbulence, more and more disorder."

Former Labour special adviser at the Foreign Office David Clark told the BBC the crisis could not be solved by a ceasefire alone, because of the "deeper rooted problem" of Hezbollah.

Israel has launched strikes against Lebanon following the capture of two Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah militants, who have responded with rocket fire.

Story from BBC NEWS:
news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/uk_news/politics/5205658.stm

Sorry about the formatting. --Andrew

[bluesron]

i wish this whole mess would just go away.

Wish we could just walk away from the whole middle east and let them just do each other in and be done with it.

But as long as the arabs have the oil and israel has friends and supporters on the left and right in this country i guess we're stuck in the middle of it till judgement day or whatever.

i can't believe how many so-called "christians" there are in this country that seem to feel that we have to get involved militarily to help defend Israel. And if you try to take the middle road, then you are labeled as anti-semitic.

neither side seems to care about wanting any peaceful solution and yet as "christians" we should be working to promote peace instead of war.

if these evangelical preachers want to sacrifice lives just to help fulfill some biblical prophesy, why don't they just organize their own 'army" of fanatics and load up and report to Tel Aviv and say they've come to help.

i haven't read of any mass exodus of jewish people in this country quitting their jobs, kissing their families goodbye and heading off to fight for their people.

just sick of the whole mess.

Ben will probably blister me if he reads this but i don't give a d**n. Ed i believe you're jewish and if you read this please don't take offense. Same with anyone else, i'm not anti jew or anti israel, or anti arab/moslem.

just anti war. especially the stupid ones.

ron

[jhar26]

Well said, Ron!

Gaston

[erik]

One suggestion that was talked up on Air America last week was for a three-man envoy team consisting of ex-presidents George Bush Sr., Bill Clinton, and Jimmy Carter to go over to the Mideast and use their considerable powers of persuasion to bring all parties in this dispute to the table. Personally I think that's a very good idea, though of course Dubya won't do it because he thinks negotiating is a sign of "weakness." But Hezbollah was able to get away with abducting those Israeli soldiers because they knew that Dubya, being bogged down as he is in Iraq, wouldn't be able to look like anything other than a weak sister to begin with.

If America is going to be able to protect Israel in the future and somehow "stabilize" the Middle East, it is going to have to come to terms with the past, of the many animosities people in that part of the world have against us--not, I believe, only because of our support for Israel (which goes without saying), but because of our insatiable greed and need for oil, which is even worse. And we will have to acknowledge (though I'm convinced Dubya never will) that the problems in the Middle East are complex ones that cannot be solved by simplistic militarism or terrorism. Our inability to achieve assured victory in Iraq is proof of that.

[robertaxel]

erik said:

And we will have to acknowledge (though I'm convinced Dubya never will) that the problems in the Middle East are complex ones that cannot be solved by simplistic militarism or terrorism. Our inability to achieve assured victory in Iraq is proof of that.

I continue to be astonished at people forgetting that every war in history has been ended at the negotiation table.. why don't people remember this?... What is everyone waiting for?

Robert

[jhar26]

robertaxel said:

I continue to be astonished at people forgetting that every war in history has been ended at the negotiation table.. why don't people remember this?... What is everyone waiting for?

Robert

The usual....First thousands of people will have to die before they will do what they already know now is inevitable.

Gaston

[bluesron]

robertaxel said:

erik said:

And we will have to acknowledge (though I'm convinced Dubya never will) that the problems in the Middle East are complex ones that cannot be solved by simplistic militarism or terrorism. Our inability to achieve assured victory in Iraq is proof of that.

I continue to be astonished at people forgetting that every war in history has been ended at the negotiation table.. why don't people remember this?... What is everyone waiting for?

Robert

Too much fanaticism at play in both the Iraq and Israel situations for negotiations.

The people in the Cheney/Rumsfeld administration underestimated I think the fact with Iraq that the various sects would struggle for power once Saddam was gone. I truly believe they thought that once they installed their puppet government and backed it up with a continuous military presence that everything would maybe not be all tickety boo but at least not the level of violence that has occurred.

Israel and its neighbors have been playing out for too many centuries to ever reach a a settlement that everyone can agree on. Sadat and Rabin's murders proved that, both at the hands of their own people for merely trying to broker peace.

As long as there are religious fanatics in both camps that think they are right it will never change with the Israel situation. And the fanatics in this country that encourage our government to not take as an agressive approach when it comes to dealing equally with both camps as they should comes into play as well.

Karen Armstrong wrote an interesting book that i've been reading (when i can concentrate on reading ) called the Battle For God which explores religious fundamentalists of the worlds three major religions and in this case the three that are most at play in the Middle East (Judaism, Christranity and Islam).

Issac and Ishmael, funny, at least they came together to bury their father.

Ron

[Andrew]

Thanks for mentioning Karen Armstrong. I saw her here when she was promoting her book "Jerusalem" back in the mid-90s, and how that city is of importance to three religions (I don't remember how political she was back then...her background is religion as far as I know...she was a nun and a lay scholar at least at one point).

I'd like to find time to read a few of her books. A History of God is a good one, I hear.

Andrew