The Hall of Fame discussion thread

[jhar26]

I will post this here to avoid discussions about this on the nomination thread at the general music board, but everyone's thoughts are of course welcome on THIS thread.

Yes, it's back. It always causes much emotion and frustration, but at the same time everybody loves it, and that's why I thought it might be a good idea to have another go.

We will however use a totally different formula this time that somewhat resembles that of the rock'n'roll hall of fame in Clevaland, except that ours will not be a rock'n'roll hall of fame but a popular music hall of fame. All this to avoid the type of discussions that Ron had to deal with about what artists belong in which category, and to avoid worthy artists not getting in because 'the're not rock'n'roll enough.'

There won't be any gender categories either. Everyone here loves the gals, so if the're good/important enough they will no doubt get in anyway. You can nominate/vote for artists from any genre of western popular music - rock, pop, traditional pop, jazz vocalists, jazz instrumentalists, blues, folk, country, r&b, soul, etc... You can also nominate songwriters like, say, Cole Porter or Irving Berlin. Anything except for classical music composers or artists (perhaps they will get their own HOF in the future, I haven't made up my mind yet). And let's limit ourselves to English language artists (except for the istrumentalists of course) which is already a big field enough (to say the least).

We will do this on a year by year basis. We will start with 1950 and earlier - next time it will be 1951 and earlier. So if people like it it could go on for a very, very long time. The main reason I will take 1950 and not, say, 1956 as our starting point is to make sure that some of the giants of pre-rock popular music get in before the're up against the likes of Elvis and Chuck Berry.

Each round (one for each year) will consist of two parts:

1) The nominating round.
I will start things of by nominating one artist. The next person will add another name to mine, and so on. When you have nominated someone you can add another artist to the list as soon as two other people have voted. As soon as we have a list of 15 artists I will close the the thread.

2) The voting round
Those 15 names will go into a poll and people will have to vote for 5 artists of that list of 15. Not four and not six, but five. I can't force anyone to play by the rules, but I know that I can count on the fairplay of the people that are here. I insist on this "fives votes must" rule to avoid tactical voting.

The top five vote getters will be inducted into the HOF and in case of draws there will be tiebreakers.

[profblues]

Good idea pal. Wish I could do it this way over at Goddesses at least the poll part.

Hope this will encourage some of the folks lurking in the cheap seats to chime in and join the rest of us.

But honestly, for the most part there were always plenty of worthy nominations for each category over there. Did the true pioneers in each category get in...not all the time. But those that did were for the most part good to excellent choice.

And luckily there were enough voters that knew who the worthy ones were to counteract those that weren't. Only a couple slipped in that probably could have waited another decade or three

[jhar26]

Nov 18, 2013 9:46:07 GMT -5 profblues said:

Good idea pal. Wish I could do it this way over at Goddesses at least the poll part.

Hope this will encourage some of the folks lurking in the cheap seats to chime in and join the rest of us.

But honestly, for the most part there were always plenty of worthy nominations for each category over there. Did the true pioneers in each category get in...not all the time. But those that did were for the most part good to excellent choice.

And luckily there were enough voters that knew who the worthy ones were to counteract those that weren't. Only a couple slipped in that probably could have waited another decade or three

We probably should have started in 1940 or even 1930 or something, but I didn't want to overdo it and end up with a scenario where only two or three people are able to vote. I hope that everyone who should get in will get in, but with only a handful of years to go before we get to the rock years that's not very likely. Still, those that don't immediately make it might sneak in at some point because not every era of the last fifty years has been as strong as others.

[egoodstein]

Interesting format/idea. I think could be interesting, esp. as it
proceeds. Thanks for trying this out.

[jhar26]

Nov 18, 2013 10:49:31 GMT -5 egoodstein said:

Interesting format/idea. As I understand this, to begin is 1950 or
earlier, right? If so I nominated George Gershwin. But as he
died in 1937 & not alive in 1950, if that DOESN'T work, then
I nominate Louis Armstrong. Or let me know if I'm jumping the
gun here .

Check out the thread at the general music forum, Ed. Both Armstrong and the Gershwins have already been nominated. And 1950 is only the "until date." If they recorded (or wrote songs) in 1915 and died in 1916 they are eligible.

[egoodstein]

Yeah, I just checked it out first here. I later modified my post, but
too late as you read it here.

[arjan]

So, if an artist wins this 1950 year, I suspect he or she won't need to be nominated again for the 1951 round? And those who loose can get nominated again to a second attempt to get in?

[jhar26]

Nov 18, 2013 12:51:02 GMT -5 arjan said:

So, if an artist wins this 1950 year, I suspect he or she won't need to be nominated again for the 1951 round? And those who loose can get nominated again to a second attempt to get in?

They can be nominated again for the 1951 round. I think there should be at least some sort of limit though, although it shouldn't be one where people have to go "OMG, if he/she doesn't win this time it's over." If the're important enough they should get every opportunity to get in. But if after, say, 15 nominations the're still not in it's pretty unlikely that it's gonna happen. 15 may sound a bit extreme, but you have to keep in mind that since we're starting as late as 1950 (and that's late if you also want to cover pre-rock pop and jazz) we have a lot of ground to cover right from the start. I can easily come up with a list of 50 pre-rock artists who SHOULD get in, but with only five per year making it that's not possible of course. So hopefully a few of them will sneak in even when we've moved on to the rock era. Btw, that's also the way the 'official' rock'n'roll HOF does it. If at first they don't get in they can be nominated again later. I don't think that they can be nominated 15 times though, but they don't have as much ground to cover as we do either.

[arjan]

Ok. I do think it's a bit weird to select, e.g. Buddy Holly for the 1970 round since he didn't make music anymore at the time, same for the Beatles for 1980 or even 1975... maybe something to consider

[jhar26]

Nov 18, 2013 13:46:05 GMT -5 arjan said:

Ok. I do think it's a bit weird to select, e.g. Buddy Holly for the 1970 round since he didn't make music anymore at the time, same for the Beatles for 1980 or even 1975... maybe something to consider

Yes, but the thing is that when we do that 1975 poll you won't be voting for the music from 1975 but for an entire body of work from artists who made their first recording in 1975 OR earlier. It's the same story for the 'official' HOF. It's 2013 and the nominees are people like Deep Purple, Cat Stevens, Yes and Linda Ronstadt.

[arjan]

Nov 18, 2013 14:27:26 GMT -5 jhar26 said:

It's the same story for the 'official' HOF. It's 2013 and the nominees are people like Deep Purple, Cat Stevens, Yes and Linda Ronstadt.

true but I think they're still active recording or performing... not sure about Yes

[jhar26]

Nov 18, 2013 14:32:53 GMT -5 arjan said:

Nov 18, 2013 14:27:26 GMT -5 jhar26 said:

It's the same story for the 'official' HOF. It's 2013 and the nominees are people like Deep Purple, Cat Stevens, Yes and Linda Ronstadt.

true but I think they're still active recording or performing... not sure about Yes

Most are still recording, but that's not required. Ronstadt hasn't recorded anything in years and she'll never record again because she's suffering from parkinsons. Many have been inducted into the rock'n'roll hall of fame years after those bands split, or even years after they died.

For that HOF the rule is that any nominee should have made his or her first recording 25 years ago, to make sure that his or her body of work stood the test of time and to avoid that the latest overhyped act who may be forgotten in a year or two would get in. But they have been doing this since the early 80's, so we have a lot of ground to make up. Even more so since ours will be a popular music HOF and there's about half a century worth of popular music before rock and roll. I'm sure that we won't go over the 20's, 30's, 40's and early 50's as extensively as we will from Chuck/Elvis until now, but we should get at least the most important ones in from that era. Even that probably won't work out. I fear especially for the instrumental jazz guys because I think (but I may be wrong) that Ed and I are the only people here who listen to that stuff.

[jhar26]

Nov 18, 2013 9:46:07 GMT -5 profblues said:

Hope this will encourage some of the folks lurking in the cheap seats to chime in and join the rest of us.

I doubt it. Brenda knows that 'we're back', but she isn't. A couple of days ago I told Arjan and he was posting within ten minutes. I've told Kathy and she said "she'll try" which is a nice way of saying that she won't. And I've told Walt on facebook but he didn't reply. So I think we'll have to settle for the seven or eight of us for the forseeable future, but that's ok.

But honestly, for the most part there were always plenty of worthy nominations for each category over there. Did the true pioneers in each category get in...not all the time. But those that did were for the most part good to excellent choice.

And luckily there were enough voters that knew who the worthy ones were to counteract those that weren't. Only a couple slipped in that probably could have waited another decade or three

But that's inevitable. I'm sure that over here there will also be artists that get in that I don't agree with and others that seem like obvious inductees to me that will never make it.

[profblues]

Nov 18, 2013 15:41:57 GMT -5 jhar26 said:

Nov 18, 2013 9:46:07 GMT -5 profblues said:

Hope this will encourage some of the folks lurking in the cheap seats to chime in and join the rest of us.

I doubt it. Brenda knows that 'we're back', but she isn't. A couple of days ago I told Arjan and he was posting within ten minutes. I've told Kathy and she said "she'll try" which is a nice way of saying that she won't. And I've told Walt on facebook but he didn't reply. So I think we'll have to settle for the seven or eight of us for the forseeable future, but that's ok.
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Perhaps you should consider categories like "over-rated Linda Ronstadt backup singers"

or "late to the party flower children and sunshine pop/bubblegum singers that make you think of folksingers"

or "artists who sound sort of like"

[profblues]

Are you going to do separate categories for individual performers and bands/groups? I ask this for when we get into the rock and pop categories and post 50s more I guess.

[jhar26]

Nov 20, 2013 9:38:01 GMT -5 profblues said:

Nov 18, 2013 15:41:57 GMT -5 jhar26 said:

Nov 18, 2013 9:46:07 GMT -5 profblues said:

Hope this will encourage some of the folks lurking in the cheap seats to chime in and join the rest of us.

Perhaps you should consider categories like "over-rated Linda Ronstadt backup singers"

or "late to the party flower children and sunshine pop/bubblegum singers that make you think of folksingers"

or "artists who sound sort of like"

naughty

[jhar26]

Nov 21, 2013 13:11:15 GMT -5 profblues said:

Are you going to do separate categories for individual performers and bands/groups? I ask this for when we get into the rock and pop categories and post 50s more I guess.

No. It's Cleveland HOF rules, sorta. And we'll see who ends up with the better one - us or them. ;D If we did solo and groups we could have done that already. The Boswell sisters and the Andrews sisters for example aren't solo acts.

[arjan]

So, bands/groups are not allowed?

[profblues]

Nov 24, 2013 8:04:36 GMT -5 arjan said:

So, bands/groups are not allowed?

He's saying that they will be nominated along with individual artists. In other words...no separate category for bands and groups.

Much the same way it works in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (or most any music hall of fame really)

[profblues]

Gaston wrote:

"They can be nominated again for the 1951 round. I think there should be at least some sort of limit though, although it shouldn't be one where people have to go "OMG, if he/she doesn't win this time it's over." If the're important enough they should get every opportunity to get in. But if after, say, 15 nominations the're still not in it's pretty unlikely that it's gonna happen. 15 may sound a bit extreme, but you have to keep in mind that since we're starting as late as 1950 (and that's late if you also want to cover pre-rock pop and jazz) we have a lot of ground to cover right from the start. I can easily come up with a list of 50 pre-rock artists who SHOULD get in, but with only five per year making it that's not possible of course. So hopefully a few of them will sneak in even when we've moved on to the rock era. Btw, that's also the way the 'official' rock'n'roll HOF does it. If at first they don't get in they can be nominated again later. I don't think that they can be nominated 15 times though, but they don't have as much ground to cover as we do either. "

you could set a limit as to how many times an artist can be nominated...the Baseball Hall of Fame sets a 15 year limit on the Baseball Writers Ballot (but nominees also have to score a certain percentage of the vote as well as the years limitations to stay on the ballot)

the only thing it would mean more work for you in keeping track of how many times an artist could be nominated (since with so few voters, percentage of votes received wouldn't come into play here.) 15 might be a high number...ten might be a more manageable number...

just something to consider. your activity, your rules....

that theory doesn't please everyone as I have found

[profblues]

I assume that with the nominations already of Cole Porter and the Gershwins, that composers/songwriters can be nominated, but how about other non-performers such as producers, label executives, etc...?